Tiggindy - Q&A Session

Feeling the pain from a grind? Think you have a cure to some Archaeology agony? Post about it here

Tiggindy - Q&A Session

Postby Morpsend » Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:02 am

Howdy! This is Morpsend from here at WoWDigSite.com bringing you a Q & A with Tiggindy.

Thank you Tiggindy for participating with us. Enjoy!




List of the questions asked:

  • Who is Tiggindy? A bit of background
  • How did you approach archaeology?
  • What were your expectations of archaeology?
  • You've spoken about how you've disliked archaeology, we'd like to know specifically what you've not liked.
  • I've read the battle.net forums and the mmo forums about archaeology as a guilty pleasure, I've had the impression that you've either been apart of these threads for own pleasure of arguing the detail with people, or you truly have hated archaeology to the point you've chosen to spend this much time to vent your feeling about archaeology, which is it?
  • You've spent a lot of time talking with other people in the forum community about archaeology, can you give us a general idea of how other people feel?
  • What changes do you think could be made to make it more pleasing the the mass of people who post on battle.net and other websites?
  • If you had your way with the profession what changed would you make it have it best suit you?
  • I know you are mainly a pet farmer, with your experience with archaeology so far would you be happy or pissed if they added more pets with archaeology the way it is now?
  • You mentioned in a post a while back that you would love it if there was a good FAQ post somewhere to answer the obvious questions. What are the best, or funniest questions you've read that people have asked/or incorrectly thought about the profession?
  • People have purposed changes to the profession to make it better, some are good and some are bad, could you mention some that you've like and some you haven't?
  • We are working to provide a place where people can come to find out what they are looking for about archeology, what would you like to see from a website which would help you, --- , help people with archaeology?

Enjoy!
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Re: Tiggindy

Postby Tiggindy » Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:57 pm

Who is Tiggindy? A bit of background.
I've been playing WoW since Feb. after release. Prior to that I was playing EQ. In EQ I was one of the top rated bards on the server in the 2nd place progression guild. I played EQ like a second job (actually, I spent more time in EQ than at my job). Other than grinding AA (and cash), I worked at collecting the various illusion masks. I also had a ton of alts, I spent time gearing them, including getting many of them their epic weapons. I was also somewhat heavily into the tradeskills.

When WoW released, we lost several members of the guild to WoW. Also, various EQ friends that I sort of kept in touch with were playing WoW. One day when EQ finally ticked me off enough (longstanding bug of mobs being under the world and being able to cast through walls), I went to Best Buy, picked up a copy of WoW and never looked back. I decided to join several of my EQ friends on Lothar.

Character choice was simple, gnomes were too adorable not to play. I was never heavy into casters, or being a rogue, in EQ, which left warrior as the class choice. Since I couldn't use the name of my bard from EQ in WoW for some reason, I used the name of my halfling druid.

Once I got into the game, I met up with my friends who gave me a little bit of money to start and the wife of the guild leader decided to show me around once I got out of the newbie area. WoW was just awesome, but the best surprise (other than seeing someone riding a kitty) was what she showed me outside the gates of Stormwind, which was the vendor that sold cats. I used 40s of the 5g I'd been given to buy myself a Bombay cat. Pets were awesome! I was hugely disappointed when I found out I couldn't get a panda cub of my own (collector's edition only).

I began researching how to get a cat mount and about the other pets in the game. Since I couldn't get a panda, the next best things (as far as I was concerned) was the chubby cute baby dragons. So, after doing a low level run (with many deaths) to get from IF to Darnassus. I did every possible quest to raise Darnassus rep in the hopes of eventually getting a kitty to ride. An added bonus was that there was a large gap after finishing Ashenvale and the few quests in Stonetalon until Feralas. I filled that gap by camping whelps in wetlands. The crimson whelpling was cute, but I liked green better, so I camped the emerald whelpling. Since I had two whelplings, I went and got the third one (to complete the set), and that's how my pet collection got seriously started.

I spent most of level 50-60 farming Darnassus rep, literally. Collect Un'goro soil, plant a seed, hope the right plant grows, repeat in 10 minutes. You can't imagine how relieved I was when the Runecloth turn-in for rep came out and I only had to turn in a few hundred stacks of Runecloth.

When I made a hunter alt, I missed the cute whelpling so much I camped the crimson one (to match her hair), but since I had the one, I may as well get the others... so I did. And I did the same again for all my other alts, including camping a set of whelplings ahead of BC so that I could have them on my shaman as soon as I reached a mailbox.

I also found a problem with pet collecting, which was that my bank was fairly full, and I had to choose which alts to have which pets on. All my toons typically carried a bag full of pets with them, plus whatever pets they had in the bank.

When the pet storage was announced, that's when things got kicked into overdrive. I no longer had to pick and choose who got what pets, I really could collect them all. In anticipation of the feature, I filled my bank space on all my toons with the vendor pets, I spent a lot of time watching the AH for trade-able drop pets, but I spent more time camping the drop pets.

It's one thing I mention, but not many pay attention to. I'm in the top 20 for best collections on warcraftpets.com, but in addition to one of the largest single collections (at 187), I've probably got more pets than most anyone else across my alts as well with an average of 114.5 pets per character across 18 toons on two accounts.

So, that's a somewhat abbreviated story of a goal oriented player with a serious pet obsession.
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Re: Tiggindy

Postby Tiggindy » Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:07 pm

Morpsend - Wowdigsite.com: How did you approach archaeology?

Tiggindy: Honestly, I purposefully didn't join the beta for Cata because I wanted it to be a new experience. I was in the Beta for WotLK, although I didn't participate much since my job at the time was software QA and I was more interested in progressing various character for real than doing something similar to my job for fun.

I also avoided reading about Cata as much as I could on MMO-Champion, but I did follow the news on warcraftpets.com in regards to new pets. I went and got the few available new pets immediately when 4.0 dropped, planning to get the rest when Cata actually released.

My priorities for Cataclysm were as follows:
1. Get all the new pets
2. Everything else

With everything else defined as hitting the level cap, getting equipped for raiding, getting Loremaster, getting achievement, leveling alts, getting pets on alts, getting gear on alts, maxing tradeskills on multiple toons to be able to provide the full range of service for my guild like I did in LK, &ct.

At release, archeology was the source of 3 new pets, which was fine to me. Not having read about archeology prior to doing it actually hurt me slightly, since I didn't go to 100 skill by digging and then start solving, I started solving as soon as I had the fragments. After all, my next project could be a pet! In any case, archeology was fine while I was raising the skill. It wasn't any worse than any of the myriad other long haul grinds I've engaged in. Fly, dig dig dig, repeat. No problem. Plus you could go to various areas and get different kinds of artifacts which kept it more interesting, dig EK for fossil and dwarf (for pets), then swap to Kalimdor for variety. At 300 I went to Outland, at 450 I went to Northrend. Any rares I got were a bonus along the way as I worked on getting the pets.

It was only after I reached max skill that I discovered the problem with archeology, because I actually didn't get the raptor mount until then.




Morpsend - Wowdigsite.com: What were your expectations with archeology?

Tiggindy: I expected it to be similar to everything else in WoW. It's much more casual in regards to raiding and trades than other games, which is a major part of its appeal. One of the reasons I like the game is that you can work on what you want, when you want, at your own pace.

Nothing really has a time limit, other than holiday or pre-release events. And those things are usually tuned such that you can accomplish everything associated with them in plenty of time, or in the case of folks like me, accomplish them with multiple characters. At Cata release I had 8 characters that had a purple-proto mount, and I expected to get the mount over the next year after release with my (at that time) other 5 alliance toons. I loved the holidays and all the other fun stuff in WoW.

Even though archeology wasn't technically a tradeskill like the others (it was as leftover from a whole new animal), I expected there to be a clear line of progression. At low skill you'd only be able to dig certain races/areas. As your skill increased, you'd progress on to new races/areas, plus you'd have the option of going back to "complete" the stuff you were doing at lower skill if you wanted. I figured you wouldn't complete things because some races had purple quality stuff to find. Those items I expected would be extremely rare, but you'd be able to work on them (or not) depending on what you wanted to do, and they definitely wouldn't be necessary in any way to progression or anything other than bragging rights/fun.

What I didn't expect was the sheer randomness and horrible design.




Morpsend - Wowdigsite.com: You've spoken about how you've disliked archaeology, we'd like to know specifically what you've not liked.

Tiggindy: The short answer is, I don't like wasting my time.

Now, I've already mentioned the fact that I not only engage in long/large scale projects, not only on my main, but also on multiple alts. The fact that I've killed several 10's of thousands of dragonkin to get whelplings on all my toons (except my Goblin and Worgen), and various other things I've done should be proof that I have no problem with RNG and with grinding. That I've done such things and never really felt like my time was wasted should tell you something about why the design of archeology ticks me off.

RNG is fine. It's something that MMORPG peeps deal with all the time, and if they decide to use it for something it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Despite the fact that Blizzard has repeatedly demonstrated that they don't know how to properly do a multi-layer RNG right the first time around, I don't like that aspect of archeology, but it's something I could live with. Reason being is that there's always something "good" that you can potentially get.

When I got the raptor mount, I immediately saw the flaw in archeology. I assumed that it was a bug, and I started posting on the forums to see if a) anyone else had seen this bug and b) when Blizzard was going to fix it. What I found was that not only was it not a bug, but Blizzard was maintaining an extremely disturbing silence on archeology.

Why disturbing? Because it was the only visibly new thing added in the expansion and they weren't giving it any attention. New races? Been there, done that with BC. New quest areas and raids, even new zones? again, been there done that in content patches. The world revamp so you could fly everywhere, the back end update to the quest mechanics (the pop-up quest thingy) and the new talent trees were new, but not something you could base any kind of hype around.

Add to that the fact that folks at Blizzard aren't stupid. They may not anticipate how the players will use certain mechanics and later have to patch/hotfix to prevent the unintended, but they do have over six years of experience with the player-base. They know the lengths that people will go for epics. They scrapped the old PvP ranking system specifically for this reason. The players were either account sharing, or staying awake dangerously long periods and neglecting their health in other ways to be top ranked. They know how the players react to new things. The way they flock to any new content. They know how players desire the rare and exceptional so that they can stand out from their peers, as evidenced by holiday mounts and the lengths (and depths) peeps were going to for those that resulted in a revamp of the holiday boss loot system. Yet knowing all of these things, they put useful epic items into archeology as a calculated lure and released it in the state it was.

Additionally, as I played I noticed all kinds of little things in other areas that seemed to have just fallen by the way. The missing recipes, the missing trade components and other similar things. It spoke of a serious lack of attention to detail by Blizzard and made the entire expansion feel shoddy and rushed to me.

So what was the big problem with archeology? The fact that it was designed to waste increasingly large amounts of time.

I don't mean the fact that you could potentially farm the epics without ever seeing them in your lifetime. That's just a part of RNG and MMORPGs.

That you could finish a race and their dig sites still come up was the wasted time. At release, fossil digs on Kalimdor were ~20% of the sites. Prior to 4.1 you could easily finish fossils, which meant that a minimum of 20% of your time was purely worthless. The amount of wasted time only increased the "luckier" you got. It angers me still to think that Blizzard valued the players time so little that they'll force you into doing something with no chance of reward for significant amounts of your time.

Simply put, while digging fossils, you have 0% chance of any useful item showing up, so any time spent us pure wasted time, which means the factor of "oh, maybe I'll get a rare from this other race" that reduces your frustration at not getting a site of the race you want is no longer there. This is the primary reason that people get so aggravated with archeology, whether they state it directly or not.




Morpsend - Wowdigsite.com: I've read the battle.net forums and the mmo forums about archaeology as a guilty pleasure, I've had the impression that you've either been apart of these threads for own pleasure of arguing the detail with people, or you truly have hated archaeology to the point you've chosen to spend this much time to vent your feeling about archaeology, which is it?

Tiggindy: It's a combination of things actually.

I'm angry at Blizzard, but optimistic since prior to Cataclysm they've generally been responsive about fixing things that were wrong. Whether it's balance, poor RNG (the whole multi-layer thing :p) or just listening to their players. They've been unresponsive in regards to many things about Cata, but (seemingly) especially the professions. This could be personal bias since I mostly only read the professions forums, but the almost complete lack of Blues active in that forum gives me the indication that they don't care. Posting about the problems lets them know that I'm upset, posting details of why I'm upset gives them what they need to address it. I've given them almost all the leeway I plan to because of my satisfaction with them as a company for years (and years), but if archeology isn't fixed in 4.3, I'll not only be canceling my WoW sub, I'll never have anything to do with them as a company again.

In addition to being goal oriented, one of my personal insecurities is a fear of being misunderstood. Despite knowing the general intelligence level of internet posters, I get angry at the repeated "lulz, u jus want free epix. gimme gimme" response. Additionally, I get angry at all the "if you don't like it, don't do it" posts as well. So I explain, over and over again (which also refines my arguments to make them clearer) in hopes that I can help one person not be an idiot.

Lastly, it's a desire to protect the ignorant from themselves. I want peeps to enter into archeology understanding how awful it is. I've done things like this in the past, like when new vendor pets come out (like the obsidian hatchling). The unscrupulous were posting them for large amounts on the AH expecting that folks who hadn't read the patch notes, or don't follow pets, would think they were either dropped, or rare, and be able to make a killing. I proceeded to sell large batches of them for the vendor price. I got a LOT of sales from the scammers, but since I could just use the money they gave me to buy more that didn't get them anywhere. I also got angry mail and tells from them, but I just laughed. I also got some thank yous from peeps for the cheap price, or mails from legitimate buyers asking me if I was selling them too low because everyone else priced them so high. Which was nice. Once I posted on the Lothar forum explaining what I was doing and why, I got a few thank yous from folks who appreciated that I was protecting them.

So, I've been posting in the forums about archeology since 12/17 to vent my anger with/at Blizzard, at the stupid and trolls, and to help other people. The reason I've been posting this long about it is because if the complaints peaked and then went away, Blizzard could assume that it was a non-issue and just leave archeology be, because new folks start archeology without doing research then come to complain, which draws the usual trolls, who need to be smacked, and because even if you do come to do research, the search function sucks so badly that older posts may be missed.




Morpsend - Wowdigsite.com: You've spent a lot of time talking with other people in the forum community about archaeology, can you give us a general idea of how other people feel?

Tiggindy: As you've noticed, I post in a very large amounts of archeology threads. Anything with archeology in the title, I'll read. Anything I think is about archeology, I'll mouse over to see the beginning, and if it is archeology related, I'll read it.

I also tend to think that I'm not stupid. Part of my own insecurity about being misunderstood means I spend a lot of time observing and thinking, which I believe allows me to identify general trends, and to understand what people mean when they might not expressly state what they intend. I realize that I'll interpret things based on my thoughts, but I don't think I'm wrong.

Prior to 4.1, a lot of the posts were about the desire to get rid of fossil sites. What was the problem with fossils? Nothing, until you completed them. If you need nothing from fossils, then you don't want their sites, and their sites come up a lot. Clearing the sites gets you nothing useful. Conclusion: people don't like wasting their time.

After 4.1, there were a lot of posts questioning whether the reduction was working or not, or analyzing the reduction. Conclusion: same basic complaint as fossils pre-4.1.

A lot of the posts are in the form "I've completed X (race) projects and I don't have the Y". Complaints about rarity and questioning the RNG are pretty standard, but there's a LOT of these complaints. Why? Because what they aren't saying is they've also done A, B and C projects of other races. If they do mention other races, it's because they've either gotten the item they don't want, or they've not gotten the item the don't want either. Conclusion: They don't want to farm races they have no interest in, people don't like wasting their time.

And similarly for other posts. I look at posts (and replies), analyze and combine to be able to make general statements that are true for the majority. Not all, because the immediate response to any generalization is someone saying "oh, not me!", but accurate enough for the purposes of discussion.




Morpsend - Wowdigsite.com: What changes do you think could be made to make it more pleasing the the mass of people who post on battle.net.

Tiggindy: If archeology had been more sensibly designed from the start there wouldn't have been any problem and it wouldn't need to be addressed on such a massive scale now. I'll get to that in a bit.

Archeology could have been released similarly to how it is now including the RNG within RNG within RNG, but without the built in time wasting, and folks would have been content with it.
How? Pretty simply. When you've completed all possible projects for a race, either digs stop appearing automatically, or you get an option to toggle it off yourself. The first involves an extra check to see if you're an alchemist and whether you've gotten the vial recipe or not, the second leaves it up to the player. Leaving it up to the player would probably have been easier. This would have satisfied all of the folks that were complaining about fossil sites prior to 4.1.

You would still have complaints about welfare epics (and those folks still complain regardless, while simultaneously ignoring the fact that epics would have still been even easier to obtain through faction vendors and pug raids).

However, a bit of extra programming on the back end could have preserved the overall intended rarity of the epics, and shut up the welfare complainers. When you turn off a race, the proc chance of the items that you have remaining gets adjusted by whatever % those sites were so that it (overall) stays the same. For instance, if the monkey paw project chance is 1 in 1000 as computed by being 1 in X combined with tol'vir being a bit less than 1 in 4 possible sites, then if you complete (and turn off) NE and fossil, then it remains 1 in 1000 because the 1 n X becomes 1 in Y adjusted by the fact that almost 70% of the possible dig sites went away. Of course, this would probably have been more trouble than it's worth.

The more sensible solution, which either required that archeology have been released with a much different design, but more in line with how I expected it to be, and how they're doing a complete revamp of it now (or at least I hope they are) to make it so.

That would be the ability to focus on a race. This can (and will) satisfy the majority of peeps that do archeology since they won't be wasting any time. Focusing on a race allows goal oriented folks to either get the achievements/titles that they want, or farm the epic they want, or mount they want or (most importantly) the pet they want.

Why is it a complete redesign? Because they've got to allow for the lack of layered RNG in order to preserve the overall rarity and they'll have to shift dig sites around (or add a bunch) so folks don't just dig in a single zone to quickly farm the race they want. If they don't, then sword farmers will simply go to Zul'drak and live there til they get the sword (for instance), or dwarf staff farmers will just be able to literally stay in the same spot until they get the staff (one dig site in Kalimdor!) &ct.

If they don't do something to preserve the rarity and instead just let those that want epics farm them, the items will be way more common because a layer of RNG was just erased. For example, if the overall rarity of the sword is intended to be 1 in 1000, based on a .36 chance of a troll site coming up in EK, that just dropped to about a 1 in 350 chance (roughly).




Morpsend - Wowdigsite.com: If you had your way with the profession what changed would you make it have it best suit you.

TIggindy: To best suit me? Let me have all the pets (for me, and my alts) with one or two digs and make them semi-rare for others, lol!

Seriously, through a more complicated and and interesting system.
First off, I'd start with the gated (not grindy) philosophy they supposedly adopted with Cata.

It wouldn't be a normal tradeskill. You'd have to do dailies each day. These dailies consist of learning the location of potential dig sites of a race of your choice each day. Digging may or may not get you a skill point (treat it as green up until 100 skill). Digging may also get you a keystone. Use keystones as a form of currency at an archeology vendor for archeology specific stuff. Also, you dig at that single site for a random amount of fragments (25-50) until your project is completed, but you don't know what the project is until you complete it. Completed projects would be either grey or white, each completed project gets you some skill, 3 for grey, 5 for white. Each rank (journeyman and so on) would allow you to get an additional site each day, with a max of 3 of any particular race. Also, higher skill gives you a better chance of getting a white item vs a grey item, but never more than 1 in 3.

Grey items are grey items. Common junk that gives you a bit of lore, but not museum worthy, so you can vendor it.

White items are useful. Those are museum quality and you turn in some number of those in order to get a clue for something even more special, but race specific. You'd also want a cap on the number of white items you could save so that peeps aren't just saving up until the end. Maybe also have the ability to trade them for keystones so you could to buy archeology specific items from the vendor.

The "more special" is a new quest for a rare, and you'll know what you're working on before hand (unlike the grey/white) and this quest can legitimately cover more than one location (and thereby potentially have to wait for the next day to finish it). Maybe 2-4 sites for a blue, and 5-10 for an epic. Blues give you 10 skill, epics give 15.

This would require evening out the number of items for each race. It also preserves the easy expansion, but means that any new items added could potentially be easily gotten by those that had "completed", but then, like other things (blacksmith or whatever), new recipes are easily crafted as soon as the drops start happening too. Maybe newer items could require more clues or more sites.

No wasted time, no grinding for hours and hours on end, or (especially) flying such that you're encouraged to go out of the game.

Plus you know you'll eventually complete everything you want, even if it may take you a long time. The numbers could/should be adjusted so that the time to guarantee the item should be ~3 times as long as it takes for the content that gives equivalent stuff to have been burned through.




Morpsend - Wowdigsite.com: I know you are mainly a pet farmer, with your experience with archaeology so far would you be happy or pissed if they added more pets with archaeology the way it is now?

Tiggindy: I'm not currently farming the crawling claw, even though it's once again the only pet in the game I don't have (other than the new whelp granted by completing the legendary staff, or Murky), and the current state of archeology is such that I'm considering never doing business with Blizzard again.

I didn't mind the last round, because those pets weren't all that rare, I got them quickly enough after I started digging. If the new pets weren't stupid rare such that I'd be wasting a lot of time, the annoyance would be balanced by the joy of new pets. If the new pets were like the claw, then I'd cancel my sub that instant and fire off an angry letter to the folks at Blizzard.




Morpsend - Wowdigsite.com: You mentioned in a post a while back that you would love it if there was a good FAQ post somewhere to answer the obvious questions. What are the best, or funniest questions you've read that people have asked/or incorrectly thought about the profession?

Tiggindy: I haven't noticed anything particularly funny, or even best about the questions. There's just some things that show up over and over.

First would be correcting the info about how far you can dig to get skill ups, second would be about getting the same rare again. Then
answers about the various continents (breakdown of sites), the breakdown of races, advice for peeps who want to focus on specific items, when they can expect to be able to look for rares, what the dig site reduction actually means and so on.




Morpsend - Wowdigsite.com: People have purposed changes to the profession to make it better, some are good and some are bad, could you mention some that you've like and some you haven't?

Tiggindy: Honestly, I don't pay a whole lot of attention to the various suggestions other than to classify them as either "Make my life easy", fundamentally flawed or plausible (but not likely to be implemented).

Some things like being able to turn in fragments from unwanted races for fragments or keystones of other races I initially liked, but later gave up on. My opinion has cemented from wasting less time to wasting no time.

I've also moved away from supporting turning off completed races to the ability to focus. Similar reason as before, I want to spend no wasted time instead of less wasted time. Also because Blizzard is adding in focus (so they say).

There's also suggestions floating around on some way to upgrade various items to keep up with current content. If that were implemented, there wouldn't be any need for new objects at all, other than to cover class/spec gaps with what's there now (like agi users for example), so I'm not in favor of that.

There's been various suggestions about dailies, more involvement with dungeons or even sites in dungeons, that have been interesting. They plan to add dailies, so that will be nice. I'm not sure about dungeons, other than maybe having areas where you've got a higher probability of finding appropriate keystones maybe, so dungeons support arch the way chaos orbs support other professions.




Morpsend - Wowdigsite.com: We are working to provide a place where people can come to find out what they are looking for about archeology, what would you like to see from a website which would help you, --- , help people with archaeology?

Tiggindy: Just the FAQ really.

To be honest, I don't think archeology currently has enough depth to have an entire site devoted to it (no offense intended). It's definitely not as complex as fishing (for example).

Once it's been fleshed out and fixed up a bit more, a site like this that attempts to go in depth about every aspect will be useful, like El's anglin site.
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Interview With Tiggindy

Postby Morpsend » Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:16 pm

Thank you Tiggindy for coming and chatting with us. I hope your Q&A will be helpful to others out there. We want to be through with the website and I glad you have gotten involved.
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Re: Tiggindy - Q&A Session

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Re: Tiggindy - Q&A Session

Postby michael17 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:36 pm

You have asked a lot of questions! The list is quite wide!Thanks for bringing all these issues to our attention!
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